Paddy Moogan Final Transcript
[00:00:00] Katherine Watier Ong: Welcome to the Digital Marketing Victories Podcast, a monthly show where we celebrate and learn from the change makers in digital marketing. I'm personally obsessed with how digital marketers sell through and get their ideas executed. I'm your host, Katherine Watier Ong. I'm the owner of WO Strategies, LLC.
We focus on organic discovery for our enterprise clients with a training-centered approach.
Today, we're joined by Paddy Moogan. Paddy is the founder of the New Leader, a training program that enables agency teams to become more effective managers and leaders. He also works with agency founders as a coach and a non-executive director to help them navigate the world of agency life. Previously, he spent 10 years as CEO and co-founder of Area Digital Marketing Agency, based in the UK.
And this episode is gonna be perfect for you if:
* You are curious about how to become a good manager 
* If you're in a management role and you don't have any management experience or training
* How can you improve your management skills and 
* How you can improve your leadership skills, no matter what your professional position.
Paddy, welcome to the show. 
[00:01:09] Paddy Moogan: Cool. Thanks for having me. 
[00:01:12] Katherine Watier Ong: Can you just give our listeners a little bit of background about how you ended up where you are now? 
[00:01:16] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, of course. It is a weird journey. But at the moment, as you said, I work with agency founders and owners to help them be more effective in running their agencies and help navigate the wonderful world of agency life.
But before that, I ran my own agency for about 10 years. Also, the agency did SEO, PPC, content, PR, and all those kinds of things as well. But I kind of fell into it SEO many years ago, when I was studying for a law degree at university. I got a little bit bored, and in between lectures, I was building websites because I'd always kind of had that skill and kind of got back into it during university, built a few websites, they had zero traffic whatsoever, so I naturally went online to figure it out..
Well, how do I actually drive traffic to these things? Figured out you could make money through websites, through affiliates and ads and that kind of stuff. And eventually made a little bit of money. And then, eventually, when I finished university,I  realized you could actually get a job and have a career doing this thing called SEO that I was just messing about with in my spare time.
And then got a job at an agency, eventually moved to London and then eventually started my own agency. So yeah, a bit of a weird journey, but I don't think anyone really gets into SEO. Deliberately, we all kinda fall into the box in really? 
[00:02:34] Katherine Watier Ong: I know. I don't think anybody does. That's interesting, though, because I don't know many folks that started Degree.
Did you finish the law degree? 
[00:02:42] Paddy Moogan: I finished it. My grades were okay but probably reflective of the fact that I was very bored about halfway through. It was fine. Like I, I didn't, I didn't hate it, but I realized quite quickly it wasn't really for me. 
[00:02:55] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. So, let's talk a little bit about leadership.
So what do you think makes a great leader in digital marketing, and has your own leadership style evolved over time? 
[00:03:09] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, it definitely has evolved and I think that one of the things that. It's definitely become clearer to me as time passes because a good leader is probably someone who listens. And I think that we often kind of grow up and go into the workplace thinking that a leader is really confident, charismatic, they're able to hold an audience, they can speak, speak in front of thousands of people, and what those things might be true.
I think for me, a leader is someone who isn't necessarily, obviously, a leader. They're better at listening to people. They try to empathize. They try to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, and I think really, they're quite selfless in many ways. They don't want to put other people first, and try to.
Really get the best out of people by focusing on them, not themselves. So I think really those are the kind of things that come to one a day, and I can say that because you know, I think that over the years I've developed quite a lot as a leader. I was a manager when I was working at an agency. I then became the owner of an agency, leading in a very different way and being a manager in a different way.
So I've definitely changed over the years and learned as I've gone. But fundamentally, you, you're never perfect. Like now I've been doing this for 15, 20 years. I know that I'm not the perfect manager or leader, and I think also accepting and knowing that is quite important as well, because. There's always something to learn.
There are always different circumstances, different people, and different ways of working. So that's also, I find that quite exciting as well. But I think that it's also very important not to forget that you're never done, you're always learning, 
[00:04:40] Katherine Watier Ong: Especially in SEO because you're your client on the agency side, particularly.
'cause your clients always change. There's always a different mix of people at the clients and different embedded cultures that you have to figure out. Yeah. I find that. Exciting and also stupidly challenging, which is why I do the podcast, because it's constantly navigating, yeah, managing people. 
[00:05:03] Paddy Moogan: Exactly.
Yeah. And actually, on that point that you're asked about in digital, especially, you are not just managing your own team, but you're basically managing the clients, right? So you're having to really shift. Day to day, managing an individual who may be struggling to progress in their career, might be having problems at home, might be struggling to learn something, and then you've got to go and jump on a call with a client who might be struggling with the results they're getting.
So that's still managing people and leading people. So it's a very difficult balance to have. So in digital and in agencies in particular, you are having to switch hats very, very. Quickly, oftentimes now that's quite difficult. That's quite challenging. 
[00:05:43] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree. So, how do you inspire your team while ensuring that you're still keeping the vision and the goals of the organization?
Clear and actionable. 
[00:05:55] Paddy Moogan: Let's be honest, a lot of people won't be overly inspired by the goals of an agency, like, for example, an agency. They want to do good work, they want to grow, and they want to be successful. But that doesn't always excite individuals. I think it's mostly about trying to find out what excites them as individuals.
What does progress mean for them? What does, what excites 'em to get outta bed in the morning to come to work, and those kinds of things. And hopefully those things align with their job, right? 'cause if they're completely different, then that's a whole problem to try and address. But for an agency.
Often, it comes back to doing good work for clients. Getting results, yeah. Being professional, being nice people to work with, that kind of stuff. So as long as those things can align and those bigger picture things can align with the individual, I think you can connect them quite well. But ultimately, you can't do that without understanding the individual and what inspires them and what kind of makes them excited about the job, and trying to connect that with their actual job.
And for example, some people just love selling, they love sales. Some people hate it. You know, some people don't wanna ever be in a pitch in their careers. They wanna just want to do the work. So understanding those kinds of things is quite important because if you try to force people into something that they just clearly are not very good at or don't want to do, that's really not gonna inspire them.
So, wherever you can, try to adapt to the work that has to be done for the team, which is really important too. 
[00:07:16] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I was thinking of moments where I was being forced to do things I didn't wanna do. So you were talking a lot about listening. So do you have, and I know we've talked a little bit about listening with the episode with Dana Theus on the show, but do you have particular strategies or habits that you've worked on to improve your own listening skills?
[00:07:37] Paddy Moogan: Kind of. So my instinct around listening actually comes from the fact that when I was younger, I had a bit of a speech impediment. So, actually, I'm not a very confident speaker, especially in small groups, in loud environments, that kind of stuff. So, I was always the quiet one when I was growing up and coming into the workplace.
So. I did it by accident, and I realized this thing that I do is actually a strength. So I started to lean into it and use it. So for me, it kind of came quite naturally to be a listener in the group and to people. But the one thing that I do try and deliberately do is often like, you know, when someone says something and you feel the instinct to immediately reply or give us some insight, something like that.
Sometimes that's not the right thing to do. Sometimes your best is to take a second and pause, and I think that can be quite powerful because when someone's sharing something with you, someone's struggling with something, they just want you to say something that is quite meaningful, not just blurt out the first thing that comes into your head.
So I think when it comes to listening, it's important to then kind of, obviously, listen. To the person, quite deeply, and be very present. But I think for me, I deliberately try and just, just take a second and pause before I blurt out a reply. And that's, that's worked quite well for me over the years because I actually do think about what I'm gonna say.
I don't just kind of say whatever the first thing comes to mind is that seems to reassure the person that I am thinking about this and not just saying something to, to break that awkward silence that we have. 
[00:09:05] Katherine Watier Ong: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the more you mention that, the more I think about how I wish I could remember this book, but there was an author on a podcast speaking about a book, particularly about the cultural differences of the pattern of talking.
And the reason it stuck out to me is that she was from New York and in, in New York City, particularly the way you communicate and support the other person. There's this habit of frankly, interrupting and saying something really quickly and it's all known like in New York City. That's like, it's a positive reaffirming pattern.
But dear Lord, you take that to the south here in the US, and that's a problem. Anyway, I'm absolutely intrigued by this pattern that you grew up with. In relation to talking to somebody else, and realizing that while it's your native pattern and if you were talking to somebody in your home environment, from wherever you came from, it would be fine if you take that speed and pattern of talking to a different culture.
You're gonna run into conflict because it's, it could be the opposite of what their pattern is of speaking. I don't think people talk about it or think about it enough, especially since we work with global teams now. Anyway, side note, I just have to. Find someone on the show to talk about this.
'cause I'm utterly fascinated. 
[00:10:33] Paddy Moogan: It really is. And actually, on that, if I can just share a quick story on that as well. I actually did some work when - this was back at my second agency, in about 2012 or 2013. We did a project with an agency in Finland, and I was one of the people who flew to work on this project.
I was gonna be there for like a couple of weeks, week and a half, and when I got there, I kind of had my point of contact sit down with me and say, okay, so just so you know, you'll be in some client meetings. We've finished people and. He said, we have this thing called an awkward silence. And it's, you call it, awkward silence.
We call it a comfortable silence. And he says, what will happen is you'll ask a question, you'll present something, and then you'll stop. And then there'll be silence for like 30 seconds, maybe even a minute. And it's because people are thinking about their response. And I was like, oh, that's. I'm not used to that.
It's a bit strange, particularly like you say, working with lots of East coast Americans as well. It never happens. And then it happened to me in a presentation and thankfully he, he given me a heads up on this, but it was so, even for me, uncomfortable. But because of the way Finnish people work, they just don't feel silent.
They're very comfortable sitting there and just literally thinking before they respond. And that's the exact polar opposite of what you just described in New York. And put those two things together. It's gonna be really difficult to navigate. 
[00:11:56] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Because I had this experience where I, I was trying to talk to somebody in the New York City office when I was at Ketchum, and she wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise.
And instinctively, I started interrupting her and still in the back of my head, I was like, this is so rude because she was senior to me too. And I got off the phone, and I was like, Ugh, I'm gonna be totally called out from HR. But instead, she sent a glowing recommendation to my boss. I had picked up their patterning, and it was totally fine to abruptly interrupt her.
Anyway, it's just very, a unique way of pacing your conversation. That is radically different than other places. And that yeah, and it has to do with listening because New Yorkers, I wouldn't say they don't listen, but it might seem like they're not listening because their pattern is to affirm that they're in the conversation by interrupting and making like some sort of little sound.
But that's not to say that everybody knows that that's what they're doing. And, you know, being from New England, I think I pick up a little bit of that, too. I think there are probably some in New England, too. So if you are having hard conversations, whether it's about behavior or performance or even a need for organizational change, what's your approach for setting that up and having those hard conversations?
[00:13:23] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, so I've, I've had many over the years, some of them individually, some of them to whole companies with layoffs and stuff like that. So one thing that I think is true of all of them is that I take the time to really plan those conversations, and I always think that. A lot of people know these conversations are coming as well.
I think a lot of people, if it's a bad performance or someone's struggling with their role, it's never a surprise. So bringing it up is never the issue. I think it's the way that you bring it up and the way you talk about the issue that matters. So taking time to plan that and how you're gonna approach it is really important because also clarity really matters.
So being really clear on what you want to say because, if it's a hard conversation, you can probably say so many things that the core message can get lost. So, I take time to plan. Okay, what are just a couple of main things I really need to say here? What are the most important bits? And I try and make a note of those as well.
I think when people are maybe expecting this conversation, the worst thing you can do is just kind of like start it but not really get to the point, and just kind of like, just talk around the issue a little bit and kind of give context. And so one of the things I prefer to do is to just cut to the chase and kind of get to the punchline and be like, okay, here's a thing.
It's gonna be a hard conversation. Here's a thing that we are gonna talk about. Say what it is and then give the context afterward. And you can kind of say this quite well by saying, okay, I'm gonna cut to the chase. I'm gonna explain what the point of this conversation is, then I'm gonna give you the context information, then we can talk about it.
So kind of not having someone sit there listening to you, but really thinking, well, okay, where's this going? What are they gonna say? What's the outcome here? I think that can make things worse and less clear. So, cut to the chase. Get to the point, then explain the context, the rationale or the reasons, that kind of stuff, and what you're gonna do next or afterward.
I think that's my general approach, whether it's to a group of people or one person, and that typically over the years are serving quite well. 
[00:15:24] Katherine Watier Ong: Hmm. That's a great tip. Especially with things like layoffs and restructuring, and I've been through a few of those, and I can think about ones that have been communicated well and ones that have not been communicated well.
Yeah. So, how about just feedback, especially when you're addressing underperformance or unmet expectations, or maybe even, I guess, positive feedback, but do you have a way of delivering that that would be heard, knowing that the personality on the other side has probably different ways of absorbing the feedback?
[00:16:02] Paddy Moogan: Yeah. One of the things that has really helped me over the years is treating all feedback as very personal to the person when they receive it. One of the things that you often read about is that you try to separate the problem from the person. So when you are giving feedback, they try not to take it personally.
It's not about them. Know what, that's well-intentioned, and it is somewhat true. I think. To me, all feedback is personal. You know, whether I'm telling someone that, you know, they may have done something that could mean they lose their job or they just made a simple spelling mistake or grammar mistake, it's still them that's done both of those things.
So it's still personal to some extent. The question is just how personal is it? And so when I'm giving feedback, I try to think about. How personal is the feedback? Is it something that is actually gonna go to the heart of who they are as a person? Is it about their personality and just their attitude, their behaviors?
If it is, then I, I might take a much longer time to prepare for delivering that feedback. If it's on the end of the spectrum where it's like, okay, they've done a SEO audit and they've unexplained hatred flank, then of course, well, that's fine. That's objectively wrong. I can tell them it's wrong. I can explain why.
And that's less personal to them. So I try to spend time thinking about, okay, how personal is this feedback? Is it objectively wrong? What they've done is a bit subjective. Is it about them as a person? And then try to plan the feedback appropriately. And I've got a few frameworks and different ways of thinking about that that I'll try and lean upon based on how personal it is.
But ultimately, the more personal it is, the more I'll plan that, that feedback, and the more I try and think about how to deliver it versus something that's quite trivial that I might just deliver quite quickly. 
[00:17:45] Katherine Watier Ong: If it's like personal, like the part of the person's approach and conversation style and that kind of thing, do you also bundle it with, like, next-step training, suggestions, coaching, mentoring?
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, those kinds of things. 
[00:18:04] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, there has to be some kind of next step. What my imbuement and the next step doesn't have to be something really big or concrete or tangible, but it could just be another conversation. It could be we're gonna follow up and talk about this tomorrow, all that kind of stuff.
So, you can't just leave it. Hanging. So yes, there has to be some kind of a next step when it's something that's maybe quite personal to them, and maybe their attitude, their behaviors, the next steps should be quite concrete, but also are probably gonna take some time. You can't just fix those kinds of things overnight.
And also you can't just expect someone to necessarily change who, who they are. Like sometimes you want someone who may be a bit. More bitty or a bit more direct with how they approach things. So you don't necessarily wanna take that away from someone, you just have to help them channel it in the right way.
So actually, I want people to work for me who've got strong opinions, who don't mind being candid and direct and open. But sometimes, maybe if a client, they may, just need to rein that in a little bit 'cause they could upset a client by being a bit too direct. So, in that case, I was working with them to try and coach someone how to keep who they are and not change that, but also adapt it to the client or different situations. So yeah, definitely need next steps, but if it goes to the heart of who they are, it's gonna take a little bit of time for those next steps to actually work. 
[00:19:24] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Especially junior kids with the, you know, I, I always say it's really hard 'cause you walk in into people that have spent a lot of time on their website and your job is to tell 'em that their baby's ugly, but you gotta figure out how to deliver that message in a way that's not gonna make them shut you down, which is the hardest thing. 
[00:19:43] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, exactly. 
[00:19:46] Katherine Watier Ong: Okay, so we're doing a lot more stuff remotely. I don't know if you are still in the UK. We've got, but generally, I think our industry is pretty remote-friendly.
So, how do you deliver negative feedback? Remotely, that's still empathetic. 
[00:20:06] Paddy Moogan: Yeah. So I think it's definitely still possible, but you have to essentially try not to do it in some cases. So, for example, I would never, ever deliver. Negative feedback over Slack or email, something like that. It sounds obvious, but people do it.
And I think the reason people do it is 'cause they're scared to have the actual face-to-face conversation and just say it for themselves rather than typing it. So I think, firstly,I  would say that that's definitely not what not to do. 'cause it definitely does happen, especially for more inexperienced managers.
So I think that when it comes to being remote. You kind of have to take the best medium you've got, which is often Zoom teams, Google Meet, that kind of stuff, and just accept, well, I can't be there in person, but I'm gonna have to say what needs to be said over Zoom. And I think sometimes you can own that and say, look, ideally I'd love to be with you face-to-face when I say this or whatever.
I deliver this news. We can't be, that's just how things are. So I'm gonna do it like this instead. I think that's, that's okay. Kind of helps. The, the format a little bit more. But ultimately I think it's even more important when you are remote to understand who you are working with and how they like to be spoken to, how they like to receive feedback, how they tend to work.
Because some people love being on Slack 24/7 and are very active and very visible, some people take themselves off for three or four hours at a time and go deep on a piece of work and then come back again. Those kinds of things are very important to understand when you're working remotely because then you can you can adapt your leadership and your management style to fit those kinds of people as well and how they want to be spoken to and dealt with.
[00:21:42] Katherine Watier Ong: So, do you do that kind of informally, or do you run your teams through like a personality assessment? What do you recommend people do? 
[00:21:50] Paddy Moogan: I don't do personality assessments. I know a lot of managers who do. I'm not their biggest fan. I know that they've got value, of course, but I've never taken to them personally, so I think they're worth looking into.
That's your kind of thing. I think for me, it's about having enough conversations with that person where I get to know them enough just through one-to-ones and conversations with them. It's why I think one-to-ones are so important as opposed to group calls all the time, because it's in the one-to-ones where you really get to know someone.
So I think that. When I first start managing someone, I probably spend a lot more time than usual speaking to them on, on Zoom or on Google Meet, something like that. Just to get to know 'em a little bit more and for them to understand me as well and how I manage people and how I interact with people.
But also I do spend time trying to kind of set expectations around their, their job, their behaviors, kind of how to work with clients and really trying to kind of set the standards so that when the time comes to speak to 'em about those standards, they've had that deal already. They know what to, what, what I expect of them.
Like for example, for me, you know, I expect them to be on time to calls to have an agenda if they. If they set up a meeting to send notes to the clients afterwards, like these kinds of things I, I'm very upfront about. And you can do that remotely just by speaking to them and sending, sending stuff afterwards, that kind of stuff as well.
[00:23:09] Katherine Watier Ong: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So,  also, remotely, what do you do with personal development plans? How do you help the employee set it up and, more importantly, make sure they're still tracking? Is it still one-on-one? Do you have, like, I don't know, some sort of regular check-ins where they're updating their personal development plan?
[00:23:29] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, I think actually with personal development plans, the approach isn't too dissimilar When you are working remotely, I think the fundamentals are still very much the same, which are, you have to have stuff written down whether you are remote or not, because obviously having it in your head probably isn't the best idea.
So having it written down and kind of worked on is standard pretty much across the board. But I think having them own it and have them update it before you have your next one-to-one, where that's in a month or three months, whatever it may be. Making it clear that, hey, you own this, you update it, I'm gonna help with it, but you are the one who has to update it before our next chat.
Making sure that's very clear to them is really important. But I think with the remote side of it doesn't change the approach too much on that front. Again, that was happening. I worked in the office with someone as well. I guess with personal development plans, it's more about, again, making sure you understand the person and what drives them, what motivates them, and not just projecting a plan onto them that they don't really.
Buy into or isn't really meaningful to them, but could be meaningful to you. But if it's not meaningful to them, they're not going to buy into it or take it on board or work on it. 
[00:24:34] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah. And I sort of mean the personal development plan in a positive way. I just realized when I said that word, mm-hmm.
That there's like a negative connotation to it. But I do think that you can just set up a plan for increasing your skillset in a variety of ways with your manager and have it documented. And, anyway, so I was more thinking that than like, you're in trouble and you have to meet these things, or we're gonna fire you, kind of thing.
Have you modified any of your leadership skills to the remote marketplace or the remote employees at all, or is it just about the same? Are there any other soft skills that you've been working on or picked up for that? 
[00:25:16] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, I think, being honest, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this obviously throughout Covid, and I'll be honest in that I probably didn't adapt quickly enough to that.
I was one of those people that thought, oh, it'll be a few weeks or a few months, and we're gonna be back in the office, and clearly it wasn't. And now I. Arguably, we're never going back to the office properly ever again. So it did take me a little bit of time, but I think that when I did start to adapt to it, I realized that actually the fundamentals of managing people are still the same.
So for me, things like, giving feedback, doing one-on-ones, doing personal development plans, those kinds of things are still the same in the remote world versus the in person world. The bits that I've tried to adapt and change a little bit. Are very much around when I'm speaking on Zoom or if I'm writing stuff on Slack.
Just being a bit more thoughtful and just trying to imagine a bit better how someone's going to receive what I'm saying and what they're gonna hear. Because when you're in a room with someone, it's, it's a bit easier to notice when you've made a mistake or you've messed something up or you've said something that.
If someone doesn't understand or it may bother them, that's a lot easier to pick up on in, in the same room. Whereas when you are remote, particularly if someone doesn't have their camera on or it's over slack, you don't know how stuff is being received and how stuff is being kind of reacted or responded to.
So I think for me, I've just tried that a little bit harder to be clear when I'm on Zoom or on Google Meet or if I'm writing something on Slack or an email, just checking myself a little bit, just to make sure, okay, how could someone. Perceive this. How could I respond to it if I can't see them? If I can't see it, let's try to just cover myself a little bit more.
So I think it's about just thinking a little bit more about people's responses, knowing that you can't see them in real time. 
[00:27:02] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah okay. So this year and last year have been really bonkers for SEO. The change is intense. Like I've been in the industry for 20 years. I'm feeling it. I think I talked to all sorts of other SEOs.
They're feeling it. So do you have any advice for helping your teams with that uncertainty and change and keeping their stress level at an even keel, even though it's bonkers? 
[00:27:29] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, I think I always try and remind people of the fundamentals of what we do because at heart, whether you are a technical SEO, a copywriter, a PR or PPC person, mark, the principles of marketing is still very much the same, right?
In terms of having a good product and getting in front of the right audience, that kind of stuff. And I think. No matter what happens with technology and changes, those fundamentals still remain mostly the same. And I think going back with SEO, like SEO has changed massively, but it's still about a technically sound website.
Really good content, a good user experience for customers, and building the brand up via links and mentions, that kind of stuff hasn't really changed since. I started doing it. I dunno how many 20 years ago. It's just stuff around the edges that changes. So for me, I try to remind my teams that, okay, remember that the fundamentals are still the same, and then the things that change around the edges.
They are very important to think about and to concentrate on, but don't get carried away with them, and don't panic when they come along. So with AI, a classic one at the moment, no one really knows what is gonna happen with AI. No one really knows the impact of it, how it's gonna change things. So let's just take a second, take a breath, not panic, not change things overnight, just see how it plays out and start to experiment, start to try things, and then, but not remember.
Not forget that the fundamentals are still very much the same, and we can try different things to improve what we do. But don't panic. Don't kind of jump on bandwagons when you're not sure about them. Don't just go with the flow just because everyone else is just take a second, take a step back and it's okay not to know the answer yet, because things are changing so quickly.
And I think sometimes we're feeling under pressure, particularly from clients in the SEO world, to know the answer straight away. So if a client asks for what does an AI Overview mean for my industry. But it's okay to say, well, we are not sure yet. We are doing this, we're doing that.
Trying to understand it a bit better. But don't think you have to just pretend to know it all from day one, 'cause no one really does. 
[00:29:34] Katherine Watier Ong: No, no saying, saying, I don't know, but I'll get back to you is such a skill. I don't know how you get younger kids really comfortable doing that, but yeah, it's definitely something that we need to make sure they're comfortable with.
I mean, one of the other things I used to do is, especially if you're younger and your career takes up a huge chunk of your life, and who knows what you're doing outside, but I used to see a lot where they might lose perspective about the larger picture. Where we are on the planet, and so I would always recommend that if they're not, maybe volunteering, that might help, like anchor them in the rest of the wide world.
Because if you're feeding folks that don't have a home or they're hungry or whatever the issue might be, I just, I just think it gives you perspective. Not that it's not important to make sure that your clients are, you know, hitting the revenue goals and whatever, but if you pull out a little bit.
I think it might help. Regulate your stress a little, like, you know, ultimately you're probably not working on a website where people are dying, probably. 
[00:30:41] Paddy Moogan: I, I totally agree, and I think I've had to say that a few times to people over the earth and remind them a bit that we do SEO, like, come on, like we are not, you are not curing diseases.
We're not sending people to Mars. You know, we're not kind of doing life changing things every single day. Yes, what we do is important, but. Have a bit of perspective, and that's actually a good thing to have. And sometimes just go outside for a walk, like, and enjoy the fresh air. Don't be stuck at your screen all day thinking, this is the, this is my whole world.
So yeah, I think you're completely right that we need that perspective. No matter what you do, you need to remember kind of where you are in the world and kind of like the impact of what you're doing, particularly when it gets very stressful as well. 
[00:31:20] Katherine Watier Ong: I mean, unless you work in an ER as a doctor, then I've got no advice for you.
But yeah, generally in the digital space, take a breath, walk outside. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have any tips for how to create, this is so funny that I'm mentioning these words with the current state in America. I just have to say that. But an inclusive workplace where people from diverse backgrounds actually feel like they're part of the team.
Do you have any tips about that? Sorry, that's a lot of sarcasm in my voice because of what's going on currently. 
[00:31:47] Paddy Moogan: No, I think you've got every right to have that kind of sarcasm right now. No, I think that, I was actually, I was speaking to someone just this morning about this exact area as well because we were talking about how a lot of companies over the years have been paying lip service to this whole area and just kind of like pretending that they care, but not really doing anything and saying stuff and not doing anything.
And I think unfortunately with what's happening in the states now. More companies have got the excuse to not do anything now. Just quietly, just let programs go.. 
[00:32:16] Katherine Watier Ong: Horrible, and also, a press release or an Executive Order. It's not a law, or that's my little rant, but like, it's not a law. And yet all of these people changed all of their DEI and, you know, initiatives in a heartbeat.
Yeah. It was awful. 
[00:32:29] Paddy Moogan: And I think those are the ones that probably weren't doing much of meaningfulness in the first place. They might have been doing stuff, but they probably didn't care. Right, because I dropped it so quickly. It clearly wasn't a big deal in the first place. But in terms of one of the more positive sides, I feel like one of the things that we did years ago was to try.
Addresses through our hiring practices and trying just to put our opportunities, put our jobs in front of more diverse backgrounds, people with diverse backgrounds, different areas, that kind of stuff. Thankfully the pandemic helped with this a bit 'cause obviously that opened up geographically different areas of the UK for us rather than just, you know, the next 10, 20 miles.
So that definitely helped quite a bit as well. But I think the main thing that helped us was just kind of starting to be more aware of it and starting to actually be more conscious of it and starting to know that there are things you can do to take control of some of this. And I think a lot of it is around the hiring process and to get more people of diverse backgrounds will be added to the workplace and your company. And then when they're there, listening to 'em, speaking to them and trying to find out, okay, what more can we do here? What more can we do to support? What more can we do to give opportunities to people from different backgrounds?
And also, there are a lot of companies and organizations out there now that explicitly do this as well, who. Train people from maybe poorer backgrounds where they don't have university access and stuff like that in digital skills and then with companies. So I think far more companies are also quite important because they can bridge the gap a little bit as well to help you on your journey when it's quite difficult sometimes to do on your own.
[00:34:02] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah. It's super important because the more, especially depending on what client you're working on, the more diverse your team is. You are more prepared to work with different clients who also have a diverse audience set. It's hard for you to market to an audience if you've got nobody on your team who has any idea what that audience is about without doing much user research.
[00:34:25] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, exactly. 
[00:34:26] Katherine Watier Ong: So delegation, I don't, I have not had problems with this, but I know some people do have problems with delegation. So, what advice would you give to people who have trouble letting go and managing the delegation process? 
[00:34:42] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, so one of the first things I try to remind people is that you are only really holding yourself back if you can't delegate, and you are also holding back the people who work with you and for you as well, because ultimately, as you become more senior, when you come, become a manager for the first time, you become busier and you physically can't do everything that comes into your inbox or onto your to-do list. So if you try, you are probably gonna fail first and foremost.
If you. Partly succeed. You'll probably do it whilst burning yourself out and not doing as good a job as you could do. But also as well, the people below you and in your team, they want to take stuff off you. They want to actually be delegated stuff and to take on more responsibility because that's probably what we did as well.
That's when, when, when we were doing it as we wanted to take on more work. So I think remembering that. If you don't do it, the bigger picture here is you're holding yourself back and your team back. But also it's a, it's a necessity for people to develop and for you to develop as well. And it really helps improve your, I guess, your footprint across a company.
So if you go from being, let's say, an SEO consultant, working on your own clients, you affect those clients, you can make a positive change with those clients. If you run a team of, say, five people who each have their own clients, that could be 20 to 30 clients that you indirectly influence as well. So if you can embrace delegation, it actually increases your influence, which feels a bit weird and backward, but that's how it works.
And I think that's why I'd remind people to mind with delegation. And the, the greater good here is the greater good for them as individuals and their team as well. 
[00:36:19] Katherine Watier Ong: Well, oftentimes the things that you delegate help your junior people learn new skills. So if you don't give 'em some of the harder stuff, sometimes you're like holding them back from either and like.
 You know, and it's funny now that I am obviously chatting with AI like everybody else. I'm deeply digging into my delegating to an intern skills because I think the more prescriptive you can make your instructions with ai, the more successful they are. And the more prescriptive you can make your instructions for kids straight outta college, the more successful they will be.
[00:36:52] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, exactly. 
[00:36:54] Katherine Watier Ong: It's gonna be helpful if you wanna be successful with AI prompting. So retention. Do you have any tips around how you're retaining people, knowing, of course, that agency folks last, what, three years or less, and then flip over? 
[00:37:08] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, so I think there are a few bits to this. The most obvious reasons why people often leave are the two biggest ones that people probably cite: more money or a promotion.
Yeah, they've been promoted to a higher job somewhere else, or they're being offered more money, or both. So I think fundamentally. Whilst you can't always control that. You can't always, you know, give people exactly what they want on those two things. I think having a team and a culture where those things are quite transparent, so for example, when someone knows that for their current job role, this is the salary band, you know, from here to here.
This is their potential, and then knowing what the next band is for the next role. That kind of, so I think being very open about the potential is the, the first step here to setting expectations. Then also, being clear about what you expect of them in their role and how they can get promoted into the next role and what's expected of them there.
I think those things have to be almost like fundamentals and something that you do no matter what. And then the third part, I think, is actually understanding that. Everyone is at the next step in their career. Everyone wants to know they're working towards something, and sometimes those things will be something quite big, like a promotion..
Sometimes it's something smaller, like a qualification or working on a new type of client, or maybe leading a client meeting for the first time if they're quite junior, these kinds of steps in their career. And I think it's really important to understand as the manager what those steps are and making sure that anyone at any point in time is working towards something that's meaningful to them.
Because that's often when people start to think about leaving, where they're getting up in the morning, and they're thinking, well, okay, I might be paid quite well. I might have an okay job right now, but I don't feel like I actually do. Having an impact here. I don't feel like I'm actually working towards anything.
I'm just kind of going through the motions a bit. That's when people will start to think, well, maybe I should go elsewhere. Just explore my options a little bit. So I think it's really important just to try and make sure people always have something in front of 'em to work towards. Everyone's gonna leave at some point.
You know, you're not going to do this for everyone for their whole careers. But I think those are the three things I'd really try to think about. So clarity over paying promotions, and then the idea that you've got to always give someone something to work towards, and the next step. 
[00:39:28] Katherine Watier Ong: The plan of some sort of growth plan that heads them to wherever they wanna be.
 Okay, so this is like the 10 million pound elephant in the room because I've, for Rob and plenty of other episodes, and we're all a bit lost managing up. I personally, in the last, how do you, two things, maybe techniques for managing up as well as time management. That was always my problem.
I spent so much time managing down and actually doing the work that I just failed to schedule, whatever that is, to manage up. What tips do you have? 
[00:40:07] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, so I've kind of been on obviously both sides of this because running a company, you are, you are kind of the person at the top who everyone else has to manage up.
So I've kind of seen it from that perspective, but also being the person who manages up as well. And I think the one thing that I'd say from both sides is it's really important to understand what the person above you actually needs or wants from you, because some people will want a massive of details.
Some people want maybe reports and something quite tangible. Some people just want a chat every couple of weeks, you know, and to know things are okay. And for me personally, when I was running my agency. The approach that I took with my team was, look, we've got all of these clients, all of these staff. If I don't hear anything about any of them, I'm going to assume everything is okay because I can't physically check all of them every single day.
I can't physically go through every single day. So for me, the expectation for them to manage up to me was, okay, bring me problems, I'll help you solve them. I wanna know the good stuff as well. But if something's going wrong, I'll help you on it. If I don't hear anything. I think I'm gonna assume that you are good and that's it.
And that really helped them to manage up to me because then they would bring me the, the stuff that I needed to know about the stuff that was maybe client's, about to leave, someone's about to hand their notice. Whether it might be, normally, it was normally the bad stuff that found away to me as a result of that.
Not the good stuff, but that was okay. So I think it's really important to understand what your boss or the person above you needs from you and doing your best to try and adapt to that way of working. And on the point around time management, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it is tough, but I think ultimately you should be spending more time with your own team and supporting them proportionally than the team above you.
I think 'cause that kind of kicked all the way down throughout the whole company as well. So I think there has to be that kind of balance, but it should lean quite heavily towards it. That sounds really bad. Looking, looking down, you know, looking towards a team below you. Yeah. And spending time with that sounds horrible, but you know what I mean.
Because that's where the work's being done, right? Mm-hmm. The people above you are obviously very important strategically and kind of in terms of the bigger picture, but an agency or a brand lives and dies by the work it does. So I think that's where most of the manager's time should be spent.
[00:42:16] Katherine Watier Ong: Hmm. So it sounds like the big tip is to interview your manager to figure out what they need from you, but in what format? And how frequently would it come? 
[00:42:25] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, exactly. 
[00:42:26] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. Yeah. And not to say that I've always had, but my last experience was actually wonderful. I would randomly walk by with the good news and be like, Can I interrupt you for a second?
Okay. I gotta just tell you something I'm excited about. Yeah. But I've had plenty of other options where I was horrible at managing him. Anyway, so how about this cross-departmental collaboration with client folks you obviously don't manage. What kind of soft skills do you think people should work on boosting to get better at all of that?
[00:43:00] Paddy Moogan: I think that when you distill all of this down, whether it's internal, internal, external, I think a lot of it just comes down to communication. When it comes to external people, it's probably even more important to master the skills of communication, whether it's written via email, you know, Zoom, Slack, you know, written documents, that kind of stuff, or presentations.
I think a lot of it comes down to that. And actually, one of my first managers back at Distilled years ago said that to me. Communication solves all problems. And at the time, I was like, huh. I, I'm not sure it actually does, but I, I actually think it's true most of the time that most problems you can come up against, particularly externally outside the company, can be solved by.
Communicating and understanding and then trying to in the future, preempt problems and communicate effectively. So I think I've had to really focus on one soft skill to do, to help externally, it would be communication, and again, learning how clients want to be communicated with what they hate, what they dislike, what they love, that kind of stuff.
I think that's why I'd really double down and if I was going back to the start of my career, I would try even harder to be a good communicator in terms of presenting, kind of sharing kind of information, arguments, that kind of stuff. 
[00:44:19] Katherine Watier Ong: Hmm. And listening. So you didn't. Yeah. Explicitly say it, but a big piece of it is listening to figure out what they said.
So what mistakes have you made as a leader, and how did they shape who you are now? Do you have any stories to share about what you would've done differently? 
[00:44:40] Paddy Moogan: There's one, there's one, there's two that come to mind. One of them is pretty tactical. That was very early in my career, probably 13, 14 years ago, when I, I was managing someone and they were very good at their job, but they kept making mistake after mistake after mistake in written documents like audits, keyword research, you know, data analysis, stuff like that.
And it was really minor stuff like. Spelling and grammar, stuff like that, but also sometimes a bit of formatting here and there. And I made the mistake of always correcting for them because I was a bit nervous about going through a Google Doc and calling out. Such minor mistakes that I would look like a schoolish going through something with red pen, and that I'd lose a bit of respect 'cause I was being so pedantic about highlighting these mistakes and a lot of these mistakes.
It would literally, like, it literally took me longer to flag it than it would've taken me to fix it. So I would like, well just fix it yourself. It's fine. It's more efficient. Classic issue though that I didn't foresee at the time. That person didn't learn and this person was like, oh, it's all perfect. And they didn't learn from their mistakes.
And the moment that I stopped doing that for a few weeks, their Google Docs were covered in suggestions and kind of highlights and stuff like that. But eventually I started to learn and so. It's so tempting just to say I was quicker to do it myself. Actually, it's not because I can compare that over time, as you take longer to fix all those mistakes and then just kind of deal with it the way it should.
So that's probably one mistake. The other mistake that came to mind when you asked me that question was actually when I was leading my agency, a mistake I made was assuming that people listen to me all the time, like they don't, like, especially in a remote world where you are doing zoom and stuff and people have their cameras turned off or they're checking slack at the side or whatever.
So I think, yeah, I don't assume people listen to you all the time and so key messages often need repeating firstly. 'cause yeah, people sometimes don't listen or they zone out a little bit. Sometimes people just don't understand it. They're not clear, but they won't ask you to make it clear so they.
Just carry on as normal. So I think for me, as a leader of an agency, repeating stuff over and over again became quite common for me to make sure that key messages, key things were understood and listened to. So yeah, maybe when you are a leader of people and you're trying to convey something, don't assume that everyone's listening all the time, or don't assume that people understand everything you say the first time around as well, 'cause they probably don't, particularly in, like I said, in a remote first world. 
[00:47:13] Katherine Watier Ong: Yeah. I mean, isn't that also just the fate of us being trained by the internet and our lack of attention spans, sadly, right? We just have a short attention span. Yeah. I mean, when we market to other people, we repeat it multiple times.
It's one of the tenets of brand marketing. But yeah. A great tip. Yeah. So if somebody wanted to transition from their job now into a leadership role, what tips would you have for them? 
[00:47:40] Paddy Moogan: This one's probably a bit self-serving, but the first thing I'd say is go and get some training because most people don't get training.
So I'm not sure what is in the US but in the UK there was a stat last year that said that across all industries, 82% of managers go into that job with zero training whatsoever. 
[00:47:57] Katherine Watier Ong: Wow. 
[00:47:58] Paddy Moogan: So actually, a lot of people who go into the job not really knowing what they're doing. And so I think first and foremost.
Or advocate for yourself and go and get some training whether it's formal, informal, whatever it is, just go and try and get some help. The other thing that I'd also say is when you become a manager for the first time. Particularly agencies, you end up doing two jobs for a while, so you still end up doing your old job, which may be, you know, SEO, PPC, whatever it may be, working on clients.
Because when you become a manager, those clients don't suddenly disappear, right? They don't just get taken off you overnight because you get given a team. So you end up doing two jobs for a while, which may make you very, very busy and probably quite stressed. So try to avoid kind of thinking that as a manager, now you have to do everything.
All at once, you are trying to put in new ideas and do all these new things that you may want to do. Keep it simple. For the first month or so, just listen to your team, speak to them, try to understand them, try to understand their jobs, understand their challenges, and understand what they do. You wouldn't believe how many managers don't really understand what their people do, particularly at larger organizations.
I don't really get it. So I think because you're gonna be so busy in a short period of time, keep it really simple. Don't try and do what I did many years ago, which is upbringing in all these new systems, these new tools, these new ways of working without really understanding the team first. So first and foremost, speak to the team.
Listen to them, understand them. Just be present with them for a few weeks and try to really get them before you start rolling out. This idea or that idea, or this tool or that tool. Just spend time with them in the first few weeks because it's gonna be busy, so you can't do everything anyway. So you might as well spend that time effectively, which is normally speaking to them, getting to know them, and understanding them.
[00:49:44] Katherine Watier Ong: That's a great tip. That was what happened with me. I never thought of it that way, though, but yeah. You're gonna be swamped. Totally. So this has been super helpful. I'm hoping that the listeners find it valuable. I found it valuable. So what kind of wins or resources do you have to share with the listeners?
[00:50:02] Paddy Moogan: Yeah, so I think first and foremost, I have a newsletter, which I'm told is very good by many of my subscribers, which I'm sure can lead to, which helps managers become more effective. So, basically, every week, I share pretty real-life situations and real-life challenges that managers often encounter and the actual ways of overcoming them.
And I'll cover some pretty. Kind of difficult topics sometimes, from kind of, you know, how do you fire someone? How do you actually put someone on a personal development, performance plan, that kind of stuff? And how do you actually give someone difficult feedback? So I try to tackle quite difficult problems.
So yeah, my newsletter is probably the one place where I think most managers should, should start learning. 
[00:50:45] Katherine Watier Ong: Great. And how can people learn more about you? 
[00:50:48] Paddy Moogan: I'm on LinkedIn, Paddy Moogan. There are not many people with that name, so definitely go and find me on there. Also, my website is the newleader.digital.
[00:50:57] Katherine Watier Ong: Great. This has been awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been great. Thanks so much for listening. To find out more about the podcast and what we're up to, go to digitalmarketingvictories.com. And if you like what you heard, subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.
Please rate us, comment, and share the podcast. I'm always looking for new ideas, topics, and guests. Email us at digitalmarketingvictories@gmail.com or DM us on Twitter at DM victories. Thanks for listening.