Final Transcript Elizabeth Linder
[00:00:00] Katherine Ong: Welcome to the Digital Marketing Victories Podcast, a monthly show where we celebrate and learn from the change makers in digital marketing. Great digital marketers understand that people are the most challenging part of doing their jobs, and this show focuses on the people part of digital marketing wins.
What tactics or skills do the guests use to align people with their marketing strategy? I'm your host, Katherine Watier Ong, the owner of WOStrategies LLC. 
We focus on increasing organic discovery for our enterprise-sized science-focused clients. Thank you for joining me. Let's get into it and celebrate our victories.
Today, we're joined by Elizabeth Linder. Elizabeth is the director of SEO at Kick Point, where she supports clients and other digital marketers, and understands how SEO works, how it fits into an overall business strategy, and how to prioritize tactics that directly support. Client's business goals. So this episode's gonna be perfect for you.
If you're curious about how to navigate this period of constant change in the SEO space, created by all these AI improvements and changes, while maintaining your sanity. It's gonna be a very timely episode, and we're gonna learn about the soft skills. They're gonna help you maintain your career regardless of what AI does.
And how to sound confident when you're talking about all of these AI changes. So, Elizabeth, welcome to the show. 
[00:01:18] Elizabeth Linder: Hi. Thank you for having me. This is, yeah, very timely. Very timely. 
[00:01:23] Katherine Ong: The changes never stop. 
[00:01:25] Elizabeth Linder: Literally. 
[00:01:26] Katherine Ong: I know. 
[00:01:26] Elizabeth Linder: Minute by minute. 
[00:01:28] Katherine Ong: So, can we just kick it off by you introducing yourself a little bit and how you got into SEO?
[00:01:32] Elizabeth Linder: Yeah. So. I'm Elizabeth. We've, wow. You know how everyone says that, and then you feel like you're repeating yourself. So we all know who I am now. I got into SEO. I had gone to school for marketing, and then I was just trying to find. The right area that I was interested in. I think I first had an interest in event planning.
Because I'll share a little fun tidbit because that's exciting when people hear it. I grew up watching, which did not age well, but I grew up watching the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show, and I was like. 
[00:02:05] Katherine Ong: Yeah. 
[00:02:06] Elizabeth Linder: I wanna run this event though. I was like, I wanna do that for a job. I wanna pick the music, I wanna pick the like, I wanna just put it on.
And then as time went on, I realized I don't wanna move to New York City or do something like that. And what kind of events are there where I am? Nothing exciting. Oh, I moved into like just marketing in general. Tried finding roles, and then I met someone on the internet, and they said Kick Points is hiring for an intern.
And I applied. And I've been there ever since and learned, and I just liked SEO, and it was something that they asked what I was interested in, and I had started reading about it a couple of months before. And yeah, just following up, and I started my own blog, which I'm not gonna say anything about. It's gone now.
No one. Look it up. And yeah, I just fell. I fell in love. No, but I got in, like I got interested in it, and it just. It fit, and I've just been there ever since. So it was a weird little line. 
[00:03:08] Katherine Ong: That's awesome. I also have a similar background, like mind you, I planned my first conference when I was 13, but I have a similar background in that I actually went to school for marketing and ended up in SEO.
It's kind of interesting when you ask people these questions, 'cause I've had people that did, you know, legal stuff. We had people who were musicians before they flipped to SEO. The journey's always really, really interesting. The reason you're on the show is you wrote an article about imposter syndrome and SEO and AI, and I thought it was brilliant, so that's why you're on the show.
So what do you think makes this moment different from the past phases of insecurity around SEO? Because, as you know, SEO's got a fast pace built into it anyway. 
[00:03:51] Elizabeth Linder: Exactly. I, I feel like it's different because. I mean, you know, depending on how long you've been in the industry, there's obviously, I think, been many of these types of changes.
So this is probably one of my first major ones. But I think it just makes it different because I feel like it's impacting people's actual jobs. More than it did before. And there's, depending on like where you work, if you're in-house at an agency, that sort of thing, depending on what pressures are put on that own workplace in terms of AI, I, you know, I feel like it's just been a larger shift.
It's not just a shift in our industry; it's a shift everywhere. Yeah. So I feel like that's kind of what makes it different and a little more scary for people when they're trying to understand it entirely. 
[00:04:47] Katherine Ong: But what soft skills do you think people could deploy to stay a little bit more grounded as things are shifting?
[00:04:54] Elizabeth Linder: I always think of prioritization. That word is. I think key is being able to prioritize, that's gonna look different for I think everybody, what industry you're focused on, where your expertise is, what your day-to-day job actually looks like under the umbrella of SEO. So it's a little difficult to give very kind of specific tips on building that skill.
But prioritization, like that's just something you have to develop. And I know that that's not. Doesn't come easy to everybody for sure. And then adaptability. I feel like that's a new word that keeps coming out, but feeling comfortable switching paces, because I think like building the skill of prioritization that's been forever almost in SEO, right?
Every strategy you make, like what's gonna move the needle first. Always knowing how to prioritize tasks, knowing how to prioritize what you're gonna work on next. But then you get ingrained in this, this is how I have to do it, and I'm gonna go through this strategy, and I'm gonna do that. And then when something cuts in.
It's like, oh no, what do I do? And just being okay, knowing that everything is like a living and breathing document, or a living and breathing plan, it can change. It's if you switch it up and change and adapt to other things, it's not gonna ruin the entire strategy, and just being okay with change. But that's hard to do.
I think. I think it's easier said than done to feel comfortable with that. 
[00:06:31] Katherine Ong: It's a bummer that you don't have a prioritization resource, because I was totally gonna ask you about that. 
[00:06:36] Elizabeth Linder: I, I'll say I am genuinely like working on something because I know my team's like, we wanna put like more resources out, and that's something I've been working on because I'm trying to think about it and write it as like, it addresses more areas, not just an overarching like.
 
[00:06:59] Katherine Ong: Yeah, I think it's especially junior staff and then people that are gonna go solo and start their own business, both of those groups have to learn how to prioritize. Right. And if you're a technical SEO, obviously, that's the other skillset where you have to, like, know what to let go of and what to prioritize on the adaptability.
I was actually thinking about my own backwardness. I actually have a couple of ideas, especially if you're still employed by other people. So I worked. At a startup, and I will tell you that's probably gonna teach you adaptability pretty fast. And the startup happened to be in the disaster recovery space.
And I will tell you, the disaster recovery space will also tell you how to be very adaptable. And then the other work experience I had that definitely had me code like switching constantly was working at a PR firm doing SEO. Because I was working on so many different clients, people were booking my calendar like a new client I haven't even seen, 'cause it was a big global firm, right?
And so you're constantly like, okay, who are we talking about? And ground me in the marketing data so I could give you a, you know, all within like an hour. It's like it. Or they'll come to you because, particularly in PR, they like the next shiny object a lot. And so I, for a while there, for a whole year, it was just me doing all social search and analytics.
I was it -- globally. And so they would come to you and be like, what are your opinions about whatever, Snapchat, whatever the sexy thing was. And I'm like. Give me a few hours, and I'll give you some insight. Right. I'm a, I'm a pro Googler. I can figure this out. 
[00:08:33] Elizabeth Linder: That's so true. And I think, like with that adaptability, you need to communicate and feel okay, not knowing everything.
[00:08:43] Katherine Ong: Yeah. 
[00:08:43] Elizabeth Linder: And there's like two sides to that where it's almost like, be okay not knowing everything. That whole fake it till you make it. I mean, don't internalize that to the point where you're just faking your whole life and lying. No, please still learn it, but you just gotta go with it. Just say, you know what, I'll figure it out.
And feeling okay with that. And there's, there's this funniest story that like, where someone in an interview would interview people and ask like a very complicated question. The person shouldn't have an answer, and they don't want an answer, but they just wanna see. What they'll say. 
[00:09:19] Katherine Ong: Mm-hmm. 
[00:09:19] Elizabeth Linder: And it's the people that would say, I don't know, but I can figure it out.
[00:09:25] Katherine Ong: Right. 
[00:09:25] Elizabeth Linder: Those are like, and just having that attitude, like it's, it's okay. I can, but I can figure it out. 
[00:09:31] Katherine Ong: I think that might be the tip to any junior people listening is that a lot more of the work. Environment than you expect. Have people who are faking it until you make it. There's a lot of that going on, and there could be either smart people who eventually become experts in the subject, or people just sort of faking it until that work thing gets off their desk.
But e, either way. It happens quite a bit. So yeah, being comfortable with that. And I was just thinking about the other work experience that, or actually wasn't work experience, 'cause I wasn't working when I was 13. But anyway, event planning will also tell you to be adaptable. And what I realized after planning, okay, so this wasn't the first one I planned.
Six or something. And then I was, or maybe more than that. And then I was actually working at the National 4-H Council, so this is a job, and the executive assistant to the head of the development department. Left kind of abruptly. And she was planning a fundraising conference for folks around the country who were gonna come in and have this entire program.
Anyway, she left so abruptly that nobody knew how to pick up the pieces. And I was actually just an int was I an intern. Either an intern or at an associate level, I was very junior. But everybody knew I had planned conferences, though. And so they put me on it. And one of the things I realized pretty quickly is that the hotel block fell through.
Right. 
[00:10:56] Elizabeth Linder: Oh my God, my God. 
[00:10:56] Katherine Ong: So I actually managed to get a different hotel block, which was not close to where all the meeting stuff was gonna be, and busing because I had to bus people in now. And side note, it all went so well that they actually pulled their money together to kind of give me a tip at the end.
[00:11:16] Elizabeth Linder: That's amazing. 
[00:11:17] Katherine Ong: I know, I know. So anyway, like yeah, conference planning. Every time you plan an event, it actually doesn't matter if it's a conference, it could be wedding planning, but every time you plan an event, my modus operandi has always been like, plan as much as you can, because shit's always gonna hit the fan with a live event.
[00:11:33] Elizabeth Linder: Yes.
[00:11:34] Katherine Ong: Right?
[00:11:34] Elizabeth Linder: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Katherine Ong: Always. And if you've planned to the nth degree, everything you possibly can control, you'll have the space to handle this last-minute chaotic thing. Because everything else is handled. And it's funny 'cause I told my husband that when we planned our own wedding, and he thought I was being overly controlling.
And then shit hit the fan. I forgot what it was, and I was able to handle it. And he was like, " Oh, you're right. And I was like, Hey dude, I've been doing this for like 10 years”.
[00:11:58] Elizabeth Linder: This ain't my first, first rodeo. 
[00:12:00] Katherine Ong: Yeah, exactly. So a lot of digital marketers at the moment, or I don't know if it's a lot. I, I think it's a bigger number than I would expect because here we are.
Year three, maybe, of doing AI. I forget how long we've been doing this, but I would say about year three, right? 
[00:12:15] Elizabeth Linder: That sounds right. 
[00:12:16] Katherine Ong: Yeah. But I'm still seeing people who are like, I don't know how to do this AI thing like in 2026, which I find amazing. But you know, they feel like they're behind because they didn't learn fast enough.
Now, how would you help them reframe that and get started on the journey to integrate it both into their workflow and also ranking people in AI answers? 
[00:12:42] Elizabeth Linder: Two points. One, there are going to be new people entering every career on any given day. There's gonna be new graduates coming out in a couple of months and have never done SEO in their lives.
They're gonna start at a marketing agency. They're gonna be tasked to do this, and sure, maybe they've learned what AI is and are doing it, but depending on what they were doing before, and they're brand new. So they're just gonna be starting too. So just because, and you have all of this other foundational knowledge, and you have all of that.
So it's just like you're not alone in not knowing. So just, you know, don't panic because you have nothing but time to learn, and how much time that's different. And depending on what's expected of you, that's different. So there's gonna always be new people, and if they can do it, you can do it right.
So that's sometimes how I just take a step back, and I always think everyone's doing something for the first time in something, so it is what it is, and you can't go back. So you can only go forward. But I think the second thing is to start learning, but. I think there, if you have the sense of panic, it's also this reminder that there are so many clients that we still get that come to us, and just the basic foundations of SEO are still not even close to being.
Covered or touched or key pages aren't even indexed on the sites, all these technical problems, like there are so many that continue to come. So there's still a ton of foundational SEO work. So maybe you're not involved in all of that yet in terms of AI, but maybe that's where you can start with the workflow stuff at least, and think of how I can make.
This auditing is faster. How can I make all of this other stuff faster and achieve better outcomes using it? And that's a good place to start. But I, yeah, I would never say, oh, relax, you got time. Like, no, please start, please start learning. 
[00:14:55] Katherine Ong: Yeah. 
[00:14:55] Elizabeth Linder: But you know, there, there's, you're not, I just don't wanna say you're behind because there's always gonna be somebody that's more behind than you, or companies that haven't even started.
Yeah. 
[00:15:10] Katherine Ong: Yeah. I mean, I have two thoughts about this. One is like the number of SEO programs here in the US. I know you're Canadian, but the number of university programs that you could join that would teach you. SEO is very small. I mean, I haven't recently searched, but the last time I did was maybe eight programs total.
Total, right. So most kids coming outta school have. No clue. So that's a pipeline problem, clearly. But then the other thing, I happen to sort of specialize in real big websites that have never done SEO, and there are so many of them, like large portions of federal websites or state dot govs have never done.
SEO and I work with academic journals, and a huge chunk of them have never done seo. Never. And you're right with some of these ones, especially the big ones, it might not even be the AI stuff that moves the needle. You could be fixing a crawl trap, and boom, that's your big win right up front. So, yeah.
And everybody needs SEO first for the AI stuff, too. That's the other bit. Right. So you gotta knock out the foundation and do stuff on top. It's not like you do something totally disconnected from your SEO strategy. 
[00:16:18] Elizabeth Linder: Exactly. So. 
[00:16:21] Katherine Ong: Do you have a place that you direct people to actually get started to learn?
I mean, for me, I think it's the IPullRank guide. [a]But do you have any other place that you like to send people? 
[00:16:32] Elizabeth Linder: I like to send people to just follow Aleyda Solis. [b]
[00:16:36] Katherine Ong: Oh yeah. 
[00:16:37] Elizabeth Linder: Just, just 'cause she is just on top of it at all times. But that got, IPullRank guide. Will Reynolds Seer[c]. Their newsletter and their stuff, they're always testing things, so it's just kind of nice to have a place to read about that and to get that data and just kind of see what other people are doing it just because they have the mass amounts of data and the people to do those tests too.
So those are kind of my go-to favorites, but I really just try to focus on all of the industry experts, make sure I'm following them, make sure I have the newsletters up to date, and. If I'm not testing things myself, I'm paying attention, but, oh wait, no, I do have a really good resource in terms of ai, but it's more on the workflow side, and it's more on helping you do stuff better.
But, Brittany Mueller. 
[00:17:28] Katherine Ong: Oh yeah. 
[00:17:30] Elizabeth Linder: Like big time. Like, follow her. If you really also wanna understand just how. What AI is, what an LLM is like, how it works, that sort of stuff, how you can use it to your advantage? Her course AI for marketers. 
[00:17:48] Katherine Ong: Yeah. 
[00:17:48] Elizabeth Linder:[d][e] We'll, I'll give you the link after this. We'll add it.
I'm blanking right now, but 
[00:17:52] Katherine Ong: I think she still has public guides, too. Yeah, I think it walks you through like what an LLM is and, and then as background, so Brittany worked at Moz, so she was an SEO, but then she also moved over to Hugging Face, which is. In the LLM space. So she basically worked on an LLM.
So that's her background. Yeah, those are great resources. And a leader, I think actually now has, you know how she has like, the getting started with SEO landing page. I think she has one for AI stuff now, too, I think. Yeah. We'll put those in the show notes. So what do you, what tips do you have around people managing their emotions?
In a field where stuff can change so fast. And how do people, particularly women, maintain their confidence in a space that changes quickly like that? 
[00:18:41] Elizabeth Linder: Oh, that's, it's so hard. I think the first, the first part of that, I tend to, I've been struggling with this for a long time, is trying to make sure that I am a good support.
Because a lot of the time I'll just defer back to my own thought process and be like. It is what it is, you know, and just letting it roll off. And not everyone can do that. And it's difficult for me to try to support people, but I think managing your emotions is like, I'm a big advocate for letting it out.
You know, don't keep it to yourself. Don't try to carry it all by yourself. Make sure that you have somebody on your team if you can. That you actually work with day to day, that you can go to and talk with, and have regular meetings like our own little SEO group at Kick Point, we meet weekly.
Sometimes it's a long meeting, sometimes it's a short meeting, but it's just to catch up on everything, talk about stuff, if there's something frustrating you, if you aren't sure if you understand something correctly, wanna talk it out, share a resource, that sort of thing. Just so that it's touch base, just 'cause we're all remote.
So it kind of keeps us a little more connected. But then joining. Any other resource or group, or space, like the Women in Tech SEO, has that Slack group. [f]Amazing. It's just nice to hear and see from others. And especially, I think if we're talking about a woman trying to maintain that confidence. I don't have, like, I'm not good enough or I don't know enough or that imposter syndrome. It is set up in society for us to make us feel like we're not good enough at anything. And you know, just trying to remember that like it's not because, I don't know, it's because everything's set up for that. And I think even in this industry, I know a lot of people wanna say the tech industry is very male-dominated.
I feel lucky enough to have worked in it. Surrounded by women, and also finding all these other women who are doing a lot of work. So making sure to just find those spaces and find those people and get support because I think it's scary to go on LinkedIn and just get a lot of. Bros with the, there's six different games, and if you're not doing them, you're out.
Like it's a lot. 
[00:21:06] Katherine Ong: Oh my God. And. 
[00:21:06] Elizabeth Linder: You know. 
[00:21:06] Katherine Ong: And just a side note, sometimes they don't know what the hell they're talking about. 
[00:21:10] Elizabeth Linder: Exactly. 
[00:21:11] Katherine Ong: So that's the other bit. The bro attitude does not necessarily come with accuracy. Not necessarily. You know, actually, inside Women in Tech SEO, they have free trainings, and I think they ran a conference last year.
And if you're not female and listening to the show, there's a great SEO community that's also on Slack that I would recommend, and that one John Mueller is lurking in. So that's the other added benefit of being in there. I think they help each other out a bit. There's this unique vibe in the women tech SEO that has not been replicated in other places for men, so I apologize.
But in that, in the female group, you actually can post with a question, and oftentimes you'll get a Zoom call for free with another friend in the group to help you troubleshoot, which is delightful. And after being in the industry for 20-something years, very unique because prior to that it was.
Communities with bros leaving nasty comments and stuff. 
[00:22:07] Elizabeth Linder: Exactly. And no one wants to wake up to a weird LinkedIn message, you know? So.. 
[00:22:13] Katherine Ong: No. Or whatever forum, it's, we've all got our own little stories. So, how do you help the SEOs, I'm assuming maybe on your team, separate their worth as an employee from their technical skillset?
[00:22:32] Elizabeth Linder: Just for, I guess at kick point it's, we're big on work-life balance, so I think it's just having that mindset and that culture already of, you know, separating yourself and then, you know, just having people it, like in ownership say that, you know, we don't live to work. We work to live. And that. What you do at work doesn't define your worth, and what you do doesn't.
You know, like we've always had that very separate. So I think a big part of it is culture, at least just kind of where I work day to day. But something I always try to tell people is, you know, you're not saving lives. You're not a paramedic on scene, so you need to know CPR. You know, like, this isn't, this isn't that, you know, this is.
It's very separate, and it's a specific skill that you can learn, and if you don't know it yet, you can know it, and you will know it eventually. But that has nothing to do with what you do after work. Like, I just always try to picture and tell someone, like, okay, when you close your laptop, what do you go do?
What are you excited to go do? And that, that's what matters. So when you come to work, it's if you can't figure something out right away. So can a bunch of other people. I think it's this constant reminder. I feel like I could just go on and on and on, but it's just a refresh reminder and like being supportive, and I feel like a lot of people don't get that, and that's what's missing.
So if you don't have any support at your workplace, I always recommend starting by being that support and maybe seeing if it changes. 
[00:24:09] Katherine Ong: So. What soft skills could help somebody redefine their values when those hard skills are evolving? So they thought that they were gonna be doing development, but now it's being outsourced.
Ai, this is maybe like a bigger question about the entire, you know, your career is shifting kind of question. 
[00:24:31] Elizabeth Linder: That's a really hard question because I. I think just going back, it's like even just when you're looking, I guess, at an actual project or client, like what is the ultimate goal? You know? And that goal might have changed, but I think you just have to kind of take a step back, be able to take a step back, be able to look at something objectively.
And I think it's just getting in the weeds of things sometimes, where it's like, oh, I was gonna do this. Now I'm in this, and okay, now my skills have to change. Now I have to do something more like, what's the point? I think, I don't know. I feel like I've even been having this conversation where it's just sometimes it gets all too overwhelming, or 'cause you're so in the weeds of all the changes and everything.
But yeah, I think it's just being able to breathe, take a step back, look at it from a bigger picture, and then kind of refocus and reprioritize, 'cause I think it's so dependent on what, what you're, what's changing and what you're doing. But I think right now a lot of that is just a lot of the fear and just anxiety is just coming from so much changing that that, like the old SEO role, even if that's what we're gonna like talk about, is that's completely evolved.
So it's just, it feels scary and, but it's, when you take a step back, you realize, oh, it's still the same outcome. It's still the same goal. 
[00:26:01] Katherine Ong: I mean, I think for all those people that are worried that AI is gonna take their jobs, there are a few things. I use AI and train my clients on it, so I'm AI-forward.
That said, I'm also very aware of how much they hallucinate and how sometimes the output is garbage. And I've current, I've certainly researched enough to know that that's actually a native feature of LMS that's not gonna be improved. So just sit with that for a second. The hallucination and the inaccuracy are possibly not gonna, I literally saw a journal article today that was saying that.
When you prompt them once with information, then you come back, and you add additional information, they start losing the chain of thought, and the answers become crappier. So what you need to do is actually structure your entire prompt and give them all the information up front, which is great if that's the type of project you're working on.
But if you have a type of project where you have to re-prompt, just know that you're gonna start getting garbage answers. They're gonna start getting lost because this is not. AGI. It's not general intelligence yet. This is clearly like Mad Libs, which is what Brittany will talk about, actually, all the time, that LLMs are just like completing the next word, like it was a missing verb, and they stick the verb in there.
That's actually all they're doing. So, I'm 50/50 about whether or not this thing is gonna continue, like all this using AI in our job, because you get these reports like the other journal, reporting coming through that says people that try to adopt AI in their companies aren't seeing like a good response from that, right?
Instead, people are getting busier with their jobs. It's not necessarily impacting the bottom line anyway, so the idea that. Your job is gonna completely disappear because of AI. I, at this point, I'm kind of like wishy-washy about it. 50 52nd. AI is not a human. So anything that requires a human is gonna be stuff that is gonna still be in the market.
And that includes a crap ton of stuff that we do as an SEO. So, trying to work with developers, like talking to another human, prioritizing, possibly not something that an AI could do as well as a human could, giving a presentation, and training people, I still think some of that stuff could be. Human-related and anything that's related to what I call herding the cats, like coordinating the people and strategy.
It's gonna be a human, it's not gonna be an LLM, is all I'm saying. So if I just mentioned a whole bunch of soft skills, there's, I don't know if you caught, caught those, but those are ones you should double down on. So public speaking, listening, understanding how to, talking to the executive suite, and knowing how to put together a persuasive presentation.
I don't know what else I mentioned, but at least those double down those skills 'cause those aren't gonna go away. Do you have anything else in relation to that bucket that you think is gonna survive? Like I know the people that were spreadsheet people or just writing meta descriptions, those have gone those jobs, but. 
[00:29:12] Elizabeth Linder: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Katherine Ong: What's one practice you recommend for people who are feeling overwhelmed? A very tactical. This is what to do next. I have some ideas, but I'm kind of curious what your ideas would be. You're brand new to learning this LLM thing. You're feeling a little behind, and you're overwhelmed. How do they get started?
[00:29:27] Elizabeth Linder: Getting started is, I sometimes just look up. Who's doing it? As I go, good old Google, you know, searching for different experts. Go on LinkedIn. Ask people who you know, who's someone that's trustworthy, who's someone that you trust to learn from. Joining groups like where, depending on where you are in your career, where you're starting, if you have access to some people, or you at least have a list of people that are knowledgeable, make a list.
Pick one thing. Just pick one thing. Read it, digest it, summarize it, and breathe. I think like I don't, I just don't think it's helpful to say, okay, do a course here, read this, do this, do that. Or like create a plan first, because sometimes you won't even know what that plan looks like until you know what you don't know.
Yeah. So I think maybe the first step is like trying to find out what you're not comfortable knowing yet, because I think. That's, that's where you have to learn, and that's where you should prioritize. And I think it's easy for, I get a lot of people when they wanna learn a new subject, or not even a new subject, but they wanna learn more about it or changes, they start from the very beginning.
'cause it feels comfortable. Right? Because they're like, okay, let's just start from the ground zero. What is SEO? And they start off almost, and it's like. You're gonna be spending so much time, and it's gonna be, you're never gonna get there. And I don't know why, but that seems to be a stick. And I think, yeah, I think find first just try to find out or write down what you know, you don't know, or uncover that and start there.
And it sounds silly, I think, but I feel like a lot of people don't know that sometimes.
[00:31:16] Katherine Ong: I think you, you, you, you touched on, touched base on, on one thing I did actually wanna cover, which was you understand things better when you. Summarize it or teach other people. So when you're learning something new, think about even if you don't publish the blog post, think about how you're gonna explain it.
And I would actually really encourage either a presentation or writing, 'cause you will retain it so much better, and you'll realize where you're lost when you have to try to train somebody else on it. So that was like one clear tip. The other one is that when it comes to, if you don't already have a professional development habit.
As an SEO, we should talk about how to create that habit because that's critical for. Being successful in the industry, and hopefully you're already somebody who's passionate about it and loves constant learning. You've already been vetted for some of that stuff because if that's not your personality, just go find a different job anyway.
But if you're in the space and you love constant learning, the tip is you have to actually write down your moment and block your calendar for your professional development, or it will not happen, and you don't need a budget to go to shows, particularly. But you do need to have. Some sort of accountability.
And I'll tell you what I do, 'cause it's just me, myself, and I over here. I have a, a Google form where I do a check-in at the beginning of the week and I outline what I'm gonna tackle and I have on there, first of all, I have personal stuff on there, spending time with my kids. But I also have, did I work on automation?
'Cause my automation is my thing for this year and last year. And then at the end of the week, I asked myself, did I do it? I also ask what I learned at the end of the week. And that keeps me like, oh wait, I didn't actually dig into something. Right? So it might not be automation, but I highly recommend you come up with a system like that if you're by yourself, where you can put down your goal.
Micro goals this week, I'm gonna do X. I've blocked my calendar. At the end of the week, you're like, I did X. And mind you, on my list, there's also, I didn't make it, but you can like explain why. Yeah. So you can give yourself an out, 'cause life happens. So like, if your mom ends up at the hospital, like my mom did this week, you know, you're like, okay, so that's why everything didn't happen.
Fine. I gotta pass. Right? But in general, come up with an accountability. You could be an accountability buddy. You could join a group that's an accountability group. You could be accountable to your coworker. But you have to think through how to make the learning stuff a habit and a block on your calendar 
[00:33:44] Elizabeth Linder: That's a hundred percent required if you're not, yeah.
Yeah. I, I really like the form, like at the beginning and end, like saying to yourself, and the micro goals. I, I feel like I want to scream that over and over and over again. I think it's so easy to say, like, this year I want to do this, or like this quarter, or that it's so easy for it to get pushed.
'cause especially I think if you work even agency side, I mean, probably in-house too, but agency side, when so many other clients and so many things are a new client pops up, or time sh, it's so easy to. Put off learning or put off working on this stuff. And sometimes I know at some people's jobs, they're not given any time to learn.
So yeah, trying to vouch for that for yourself and communicate the importance of time for education and workloads, I think I would really recommend everyone to have, try to have that conversation or to put that together with some higher-ups, just to make sure that. Try, right? Like, the worst they could say is no, you know?
But I think I like the micro goals, like what's something actually digestible that I can do now? And I think, yeah, a lot of those, a lot of those self-help books are kind of great for all those little hacks that you have. But yeah, writing down what you like and sum, summarize it, like, how would I teach this to someone else?
Like, if I just read this and I had to explain it to my mom. What would I say? 
[00:35:17] Katherine Ong: Right. It could be a family member, and that would be great, actually. Because your family member is probably closer to your client. 
[00:35:23] Elizabeth Linder: Exactly. They don't know. They have no idea what you're doing. 
[00:35:26] Katherine Ong: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, I mean those, those are like the hacks, so I highly recommend them.
You take your bigger goal, like, I don't understand this whole AI thing, and just chunk it. And so you got like a calendar block on Monday, and that's when you're gonna read the first half of Brittany's LLM thing, because I think it's in two pieces. So like, you know, okay, that's what I'm doing, and I'm understanding that I'm writing down whatever I don't understand.
And then next Monday I'm gonna read the second half, and I'm gonna write down whatever I don't understand. Right. Whatever that is. But. Yeah, if you don't have a habit of figuring out how to learn stuff in the SEO space on your own, you gotta figure out how to do that. So if you were to label one soft skill that you think successful SEOs and digital marketers will need over the next 10 years, what would be the one that you tell everybody they have to double down on?
[00:36:18] Elizabeth Linder: I keep going back to prioritization, because even what you, what you just said, right? Like, take your bigger goal. Even just when it comes to learning habits, when it comes to like just learning on the job, when it comes to communicating, what to communicate for, I feel like it always keeps coming back to how to prioritize things, and all the other soft skills fall into that, like chunking or.
Doing one thing first, and why am I doing that first? Even knowing that helps with communication. Like it, it just, I think, I think it's just prioritizing and knowing you. That has got to be a skill that you have, and if you don't have it, then I. It's time to get on that. 
[00:37:00] Katherine Ong: Yeah. Also, there's so much information on the internet, every year it just grows.
Because there's more people publishing, more like whoever is publishing. And if you can't figure out how to narrow the scope of that, you're gonna waste your entire time futsing on the internet finding information and never actually taking action. 
[00:37:17] Elizabeth Linder: Well, exactly. It's just you gotta, it's like when they say about working out, you know, you just have to.
Do one thing. Just start. Like what? 
[00:37:24] Katherine Ong: Just start. Yeah. 
[00:37:25] Elizabeth Linder: Ten Nike said it best, just do it. But yeah, if it's 10 squats a day, one article a week, even like, I'm even like, if it's really like you're new to this or anything, just like one, just start with one and, but yeah, you have to empathize empathy for yourself.
Yeah. I think, you know, just. Take it easy. We're all in this together. We're all riding this wave. You're not alone in it. It's just we're all at different stages, and I just think it's like finding that community and trying to prioritize as best you can with what makes sense based on your actual workload.
Like what are you working on, what clients, what industry, what. Like, start there. Because what even you said earlier about if this affects your industry or client more. If you were working with e-commerce clients or local SE or anything like that, focus on the AI stuff that hits that first. And worry about that.
[00:38:23] Katherine Ong: Right? 'Cause like honestly, if you work in pharma, I don't even know if you can do any of this stuff. 
Pharma is so highly regulated that it's possible that there's not much you could do because it all has to come along with that waiver saying this, this med might kill you, whatever. That kind of thing. So I mean, there are some industries where you just don't have flexibility, right?
And it's possible that you just can't do anything. And then there are other ones like. The federal government where it's gonna move so slowly that it impacts your strategy. Right? Yeah. And that doesn't mean you're not gonna still do some stuff, but, yeah, like one of my clients is actually in a space where, you know, AI likes to reference fresh stuff.
Do they have any strategy or ability to pivot, to update their content at that kind of pace? This particular one? No, never. They have like a new report that comes, but they can't like go back and massage their old stuff and make it fresh. It's not part of their workflow. Right. So we just reduce expectations across the board.
I was like, okay, well, we're gonna do what we can do, but just know that after this stuff ages a certain number of months. You possibly are gonna lose the LLM traffic. And he was like, okay. It is what it is. Like, exactly. 
[00:39:34] Elizabeth Linder: Education. Communication. You know, it's just, and yeah. See, it's not, it's not all be all, end all.
Everyone's gonna die. It's, oh my God, it's over. Every industry is impacted differently. Your workload's different. Knowing what you need to know and knowing what you don't know. And do not die on every hill. Don't. 
[00:39:54] Katherine Ong: No. 
[00:39:54] Elizabeth Linder: Just. Yeah. 
[00:39:56] Katherine Ong: Definitely not. So this has been great. Do you have any additional resources you wanna share that you haven't talked about already?
[00:40:03] Elizabeth Linder: It was pretty much Brittany Mueller's. I made note to talk about her actual AI for Marketers course, and I did bring, I remember to bring that up. So that's a big one. That's a really big one. I think it really helped with just like getting in the space, and then you get to join this awesome community after as well, which is super helpful.
And everyone, you know, gets to talk about their projects, their workflows, they all help each other. There's an ongoing kind of like. Hackathons, that they call them, where you get to work on things together and ask questions. And I just think it's a way to join a community that's directly about learning this stuff.
So, I would strongly recommend just feeling more comfortable in it. That's a great course. I took it myself, so I'm gonna vouch for it. And this is not sponsored at all. This is just me loving it so. 
[00:40:53] Katherine Ong: Well, and when you come up with that prioritization resource, you're gonna let me know. 
[00:40:56] Elizabeth Linder: Yes, absolutely. 
[00:40:58] Katherine Ong: So, how can people learn more about you?
[00:41:01] Elizabeth Linder: I, oh, I am unreliable. No, I'm gonna work on being more reliable online, but I'm in the Women in Tech SEO group, Slack, I'm there LinkedIn. I'm on it all the time, checking. So I've been trying to make some kind of TikTok and Instagram, Liz Linder, SEO. I have no promises there on the quality of that content, but if you enjoy watching those things, you can follow me there.
But I think if you ever wanna talk or have some support and rant about changes, and if you're feeling behind, I'd say message me on LinkedIn or meet me in the Women in Tech SEO Slack group. 
[00:41:40] Katherine Ong: Awesome. That was great. So thank you. Thanks for joining me today. It's been great. 
[00:41:45] Elizabeth Linder: Yeah, this has been awesome.
Thank you. 
[00:41:47] Katherine Ong: Thanks so much for listening. To find out more about the podcast and what we're up to, go to digitalmarketingvictories.com. And if you like what you heard, subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Rate us, comment, and share the podcast, please. I'm always looking for new ideas, topics, and guests.
Email us at digital marketing or DM us on Twitter at DM victories. Thanks for listening.
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[d]@geoveenlagus@ripplebtg.com can you compile a list of all of the resources that she mentions and email her to get the links?
_Assigned to geoveenlagus@ripplebtg.com_
[e]@katherine@wostrategies.com got that! I searched some of the resources, will send her an email now too.
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